"No has always meant go to me," says Tiffanie Harrison, a passionate educator, equity designer, and entrepreneur. We chat with Tiffanie about her work leading diversity, equity and inclusion (DEI) initiatives at schools and companies across the country. Learn about centering lived experience, how to create "brave spaces," community engagement, and more.
"No has always meant go to me," says Tiffanie Harrison, a passionate educator, equity designer, and entrepreneur. We chat with Tiffanie about her work leading diversity, equity and inclusion (DEI) initiatives at schools and companies across the country. Learn about centering lived experience, how to create "brave spaces," community engagement, and more.
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*This is an automated transcript. Please excuse any errors or hilarious mistakes.*
Episode Teaser / Tiffanie Harrison (guest):
The planning process has been really interesting because it's truly generative and it's not linear. And that can be frustrating, that kind of ambiguity that we're called to be comfortable with in design. We thought we were almost to the answer. We thought we were almost to a work product, but now we're questioning why we're doing it this way. And I've noted that's hard to do as a group. So it's definitely a challenge of ego. And it's a very personal thing. There are triggers that happen when you're working this closely with people. But I believe it's worth it. I think that's where the growth is and that's where the change that's needed lies is in that tension.
Intro:
One of the landmark programs here at the Center for Care Innovations is Catalyst — a training program where our participants learn and practice human-centered design to explore strategic challenges within their organizations. We often invite experts from the field to share their insights and discuss their own projects. Listen as our longtime collaborator, Chris Conley, interviews one of our special guests.
Chris Conley (host):
So I am really excited today to be speaking with Tiffanie Harrison, who is a passionate educator, entrepreneur and equity designer with a community focus. Tiffanie has led campus equity initiatives and the Round Rock Texas school district, and was a member of the Round Rock Black Parents Association to improve relationships between parents and teachers.
She was named a 2020 fellow with the New Leaders Council. A national organization that develops, connects, and uplifts inclusive cross sector leaders who transform our country through social and political change. Rooted in equity. It's an honor to be with you here today. Tiffanie, welcome. And thank you for taking time to share your experience and expertise with us in the Catalyst community.
Tiffanie Harrison:
Thank you so much. I am so happy to be here today.
Chris Conley:
Awesome, awesome. So let's maybe we can get started just by having you share. A little bit about your background and your journey into now equity and justice.
Tiffanie Harrison:
Sure. So my story comes full circle in so many ways. I went to undergrad at Baylor University.
I was pre-med. I thought that I wanted to be a doctor and found out about three and a half years into my undergraduate education with all my science courses that I was terrified of blood. So I had to do this quick pivot. I the second semester of my senior year, I took 22 hours to graduate with a degree that was human health, performance, and recreation, which roughly translates to PE or physical education.
And my parents said we didn't pay all this money for you to get a PE degree. They're wildly supportive. And at the same time I was thinking, I don't know what I'm going to do with this. My trajectory has changed entirely. So I started. Stock of my life and what I was passionate about. And I had started a dance business amount of 16 years old that actually became extremely profitable and was a young entrepreneur.
And so I started thinking like, that's what I love. In fact, while I was an undergrad, I was driving back to round rock from Waco. Several times a week to run a private dance team and to do private lessons. And so I thought, I think I want to pursue something along the lines of entrepreneurship business.
So I applied to get into Baylor's MBA school and I was told, there are many reasons you're too young, you don't have work experience. You're a woman, all these reasons why I wouldn't get in No has always meant go to me. So I did got my MBA, worked in industry and both marketing and finance industries for several years and ended up at a nonprofit, the dig corporate finance education for youth and underserved communities.
So I serve students in the Houston area. I got to do a lot of the education part. And I also did a lot of the interfacing with the companies, the executive volunteers, and what I realized was I loved the students. And I had to revise my life to say, why would it be a CEO of some company one day? And.
Going into the classroom was very different from my second trajectory. But I did it. Interestingly enough, a marketing job opened up at my high school round rock high school, and I got alternatively certified to teach. And I remember my mom, the first day, she called me at the end of the day and said, how was it?
And she was very afraid. And I said, I loved it. And it's so true. I've never loved anything more. I've never done something that's more difficult, more meaningful something that has the capacity to really impact the world and exponential. And when I started teaching people said, wow, it's going to be so great to have a black educator in this area.
There weren't many, there are 9% black students in our district and only three to 4% black educators. And I just thought just be great to have. Strong educator. And I wanted to make that perspective a racial, even as a black woman, because that's really how I had tried to live my life out, learning and earning my blackness, growing up in a white, suburban area.
But it didn't take long for me to realize what people meant. I taught about 1% of our students. I taught very specialized courses, one to 3% any given year. But somehow in the mornings, my rooms were filled with black children that didn't even take my classes. They just needed somewhere where that. The safe and where they belonged.
And I started noticing these trends where my black and Latino students were experiencing some things that my white students weren't like, they were being stopped in the hallway. They were being accused of carrying drugs. And so I started to see there were definite differences. And when you juxtapose that to academic outcomes, you could see those racialized differences.
And it was actually my students that really spurred me to bring my passions for equity, for design and for justice together. When they demanded an equity audit, a multiracial coalition of students, one black, one Afro-Latino, one white, they were the driving force of doing an equity audit on our campus, looking at the discipline disproportionalities, and then juxtaposing those to the academic outcomes along racial lines.
And so my students and I actually designed a process. We did user interviews. We met with people at the district level to complete this equity audit. We experienced a lot of pushback and we found that people with the most power in our district didn't really have the will to address these longstanding problems.
And as a result of that, I continued my design journey with organizations like the teachers, skilled IDEO, ideo.org and some others. And the most interesting thing is that I'm right now on a project called the health equity collective with ideo.org and the Robert Wood Johnson foundation. So that's the full circle that I'm talking about because I'm positioned to be a part of that group because of my background in education and advocacy.
But my lived experience navigating healthcare as a black woman, the most recent part of my story is that after eight and a half years in the classroom, working with my students and during their experiences building community, I realized there were changes that I wanted to make, that I could not make from the class.
And my trajectory was not to be a school leader. So I don't think I was ever meant to be an assistant principal or principal. But as I stopped to think about who held the most power in a school district, I was like, oh a superintendent and my superintendent I had actually one time when I expressed that I didn't always feel safe speaking my truth as a person of color in our district and advocating for students of color.
My superintendent told me in front of a room full of people that if you don't feel safe, it's your job to make yourself feel safe. And if you're not here for all students and perhaps you should leave which is wild, because at that point I was a two teacher of the year that was very experienced in serving all students.
I was merely highlighting something that needed our attention. And so after lots of thought and consideration with those words, resounding in my mind, I decided that I would run for school board because who's the boss of the superintendent in Texas. It's your elected school board. So I ran for school board, which meant that I.
I left my job once I was elected in the middle of COVID and made this very interesting transition from one day, being a teacher to the next, being the superintendent's boss. And all my passions converge here, especially as we're navigating COVID-19 and the disproportionate impacts that has on people of color, on disabled people.
And so full circle and this work, and just really blessed to get to do what I love.
Chris Conley:
That's awesome. I have so many thoughts and emotions right now of what a bad-ass you are. That's all I want to say. Super inspiring. You're clearly committed to figuring out how to make things happen. I love that you, the classroom experience, you realized how much value there is in inspiring the next generation of kids and giving them the support they need to become who they can become. Super inspiring. I appreciate you so much for that. So you mentioned the health equity collective. Could you say a little bit more about what that project is about and from the context of clearly IDEO and it's, I love that you're involved in design as these Catalyst teams are learning that's part of the thing they're learning is how to move through a program and figure things out with community. We'll get into the ideas of prototyping and testing that stuff, but really trying to make change through tangible intervention. Can you tell, before we get into all that, can you talk a little bit about the health equity collective, or initiative, maybe I'm not referring to it properly.
Tiffanie Harrison:
We call it a bunch of different things, health justice -- I'll refer to it as a health equity collective, but it's a group of people from all over, primarily the U.S. There's some people outside of this country working together with ideo.org, which is the nonprofit arm that was born from IDEO and the Robert Wood Johnson foundation. That's the Johnson & Johnson Foundation.
And what we're doing is coming together. So medical professionals, activist native people, black people that are experiencing health, injustice educators coming together to find these solutions to address health inequity. And so I came onto this project in March of last year, just as a one-time thing to come in with my experience as an educator, as a classroom educator.
And as someone who's very familiar with prototyping and piloting there are three kinds of streams of this phase of the health equity collective. So it's existed for about a year and a half now, and we've determined that there's a storytelling stream so that we can capture the information and we can capture the work as we progress.
And then there's also a learning stream that focuses on both learning and unlearning, deeply rooted white supremacy culture and an inequity. And then lastly, the stream that I work most closely on is the piloting prototyping stream. So through the generosity of the Robert Wood Johnson foundation and the hard work of those, that ideo.org we will be having 10 pilots from people who have some level of expertise in regards to health, whether that's health and an organization or institution or community health. So we'll be working together and piloting, having funded pilots to address health inequity. I was drawn to this project not even as an educator, not even as a designer, but as a black woman, as a black woman that wants to have children one day and will likely be considered advanced maternal age is a black woman who is educated and still acknowledges that there are such incredible disproportionalities for maternal mortality for black women.
So while I feel that this project is meaningful on a professional level, I'm more deeply tied to this program on a personal level, because to me - it gives me hope that we can address the long-held inequities of health care.
Chris Conley:
Can you share your we met because you're collaborating with Veenu Aulakh the former executive director at CCI on this project and she just spoke so highly of you because of how. You're engaging in the work itself. And can you talk a little bit about how you've brought the lens of equity to the project, doing the project itself, as it's one of the things we want the Catalyst teams to be aware of is, equity is not just something you think about for other people, but how you work together, how you're running a project - can you talk a little bit about that?
Tiffanie Harrison:
Yes, of course. First of all, love Veenu. She's so amazing. So what I got brought back onto this project, I was brought on as a co-leader and there are five of us. We've developed a model of co-leadership. So what does that look like? And I think the fact that, again, is equity.
One thing that I think about when I'm thinking about equity mindsets is who's voice do we not hear? And who's not at the table a lot of times when something like this is built, it's built with all experts, right? Medical experts, health experts. What's the point of that because if they knew how to solve for inequity, it would be solved already.
Often times what we're missing is the people with lived experience and centering that lived experience. And that is something that I have. About this project. So you know, it was a dream come true on a personal level. When I got elected to school board, I quit my teaching job and I had saved money. But I'm a teacher at the U S not like I was super wealthy.
And so I had said a named, I want to work 15 to 20 hours a week. Knowing that school board is sometimes 30 to 40 hours a week of a volunteer job, especially right now with all the contention. And I did that one workshop for the collective and then I actually was consulted and brought in and they said, we're wanting to engage experts in health and equity, but we want people with lived experience.
And what might that look like for us to include people that have lived experience on this project. And so they sat down with me and they compensated me for my time. They compensated me well to basically build out a job description for this work. Now, as a black woman who is engaged in design. That was a big deal to me to have my voice centered, to have my voice heard, to have my voice elevated.
But there was still a level of distrust. So after that conversation, that job description actually came out. And it was the co-leadership model. We brought five people on one of them. My good friend. Her name is Chiquita Wilson Kirby. And one thing that she lasts about is she's like I'm a dark black woman in the U S my name is Jaquinta I cannot hide from who I am and the inclusive nature of this project.
The way that we gather, when we gather to work, we have some norms, we have 15 minutes of connection. How are you doing what's going on in your world? And we've built such deep and incredible bonds so quickly that way. By taking care of people first and checking in with people first and then going through this process with shared power, which is uncommon, right?
It's normally the people at the top. We talk about white supremacy culture and we talk about paternalism and empower, and those with power make decisions without the understanding of those without power and. This process is really the antithesis of that. This is being driven by the collective. The co-leadership team really works to bring the collective vision to light.
We are compensated well for the work that we're doing, but I think that's a really important thing. Anytime we're doing any kind of design work is our assumptions around the time that people are able to give. And time is a valuable resource, just as much as money, but understanding that when we're centering the experiences of marginalized people, there's often not time to give because time equates to money.
So as someone has worked on lots of projects, this project has been incredible. And we're not just doing equity to other people or for other people, which I think happens organizationally quite a bit is we want to do equity work and we want equity for you, but then even the people within the organization are not experiencing equity of culture within the work group.
And so that's something that I've loved about this project.
Chris Conley:
Nice. So many things we could dig in there potentially. Can you talk a little bit about how the co-leadership works? Both from what you're doing, but then what happens if, how do you make a decision if there's a disagreement about which direction to go, etc, how do you guys navigate that?
Tiffanie Harrison:
Yeah. So we're speaking to navigation where we're definitely building the plane as we fly it. And we've collected some of our learnings from this experience. But it's definitely rooted in democratized processes. So we discuss everything. And we also embrace discomfort. So there have been some moments that were deeply uncomfortable, where I think in a polite society that is guided by white supremacy culture, we would not discuss. So things around compensation we otherwise wise my not discuss, but this is a space where we discuss, we pushed back on each other. We lean in. And I can't say that 100% of the time it's easy and that we all agree because we have different lived experiences. We live different places across the U S but what I can say is that our learnings have been such that when we stay engaged in the conversation. And we S when we stay in it together, we journey through things that are difficult. We push that growing edge and we've come out on the other side. And it's yielded some really deep and robust learnings that we'll be happy to share through our process as we continue on in the rest of this journey.
Chris Conley:
Nice. Nice. I think that's a misconception people have is and maybe it is because of white supremacy culture, not wanting to rock the boat and, I think that is probably the main issue, but true collaboration means true engagement in the issues and the ideas of the people who are co-leading are a part of the process.
And I think what I teach is. It's just a mindset shift that hearing the voices of others, especially when they're a different point of view than your own is a gift. It's giving you information you didn't have, it's helping you see the world in a whole new way. And I know a lot of people are closed to that kind of thing because they, I also think the educational system, which is get the answer right first you have to be correct, we know the answer. That also inculcates on a sense that there's a right and wrong versus these very messy challenges and opportunities we work on that have to be worked through. And it sounds like you guys are modeling that kind of experience with each other. And therefore just think of the deep relationship you're building through that process of authentic discussion and argument, even if it goes to argument, I think that's wonderful.
Tiffanie Harrison:
It is, there's not many places where that kind of connection happens because it is difficult. It is messy. The planning process has been really interesting because it's truly generative and it's not linear. And that can be frustrating, that kind of ambiguity that we're called to be comfortable with in design.
We thought we were almost to the answer. We thought we were almost to a work product, but now we're questioning why we're doing it this way. And I've noted that's hard to do as a group. So it's definitely a challenge of ego. And it's a very personal thing. There are triggers that happen when you're working this closely with people.
But I believe it's worth it. I think that's where the growth is and that's where the change that's needed lies is in that tension.
Chris Conley:
Yeah. Nice. These, something that's maybe different. There is a, in that project is you're working with people who you haven't worked with. Outside of your organization, so to speak. In the case of the Catalyst, they also have organizational power and politics to navigate, as they decide, how open are we going to be with each other?
Or how, what are our norms for this teamwork we're going to be doing? And often they are, they also collaborate with external partners. So there is some of that external partner. Do you have any, and you've worked within highly political organizations. School districts can be that way. And you've mentioned the tensions that are going on around education in the nation right now.
Can you talk a little bit about maybe things the teams could do? Or things they could do as they embark on this journey of collaborative work together, but being more authentic with each other, addressing equity in their own team, as well as with community. Can you just...what advice do you have for them?
Tiffanie Harrison:
I think you pointed out something really important. It is much easier to do equity with other people externally than it is internally within an organization. It does require a level of trust and authenticity, and I do not believe that's something that can be skipped over. So in Round Rock ISD I was one of the co-chairs of our equity task force.
And that was really interesting because there were differing power structures within this task force. And I was one of the weakest in terms of power structure. I was the only educator on that task force, but I was on there because I was such a passionate advocate of equity and I pushed my way in. So that's number one.
And I had a lot of political power and authority to be able to do that as a two-time teacher of the year. And so I think that when managing team dynamics, it's important to note who's not at the table. And then I think also, internally, it is important to note the power structures that already exist in the hierarchy that can make it difficult for people to show up as their full and authentic selves.
I'm not going to lie, the journey through the equity task force - it was about a three-year journey and it was painful. Lots of tension, some misunderstanding, but what I can say I'm really proud of is that we stayed engaged and, even within equity, equity is not necessarily a monolith. It should definitely center the voices of the most marginalized.
And, we need to understand that those that are marginalized also have varying experiences. And so the work of decolonizing and recentering and refocusing around equity is everyone's work. And it's lifelong work - we cannot do for others and lead others through things that we are not willing to do internally in our organizations.
So I think the stuff that cannot be missed or overlooked is that step towards getting to know each other and spending the time. And like I said, time is a really important resource. So a lot of times we just want to rush to the work, but building that understanding and knowledge of each other, I believe is really important.
There is an exercise called the social identity wheel. I think it's put out by the University of Illinois. I believe I'll have to go back and look. But that's a wonderful exercise. They have it hosted on their website and they tell you how to walk through your own social identities and acknowledge how that might be impacting how you show up in a group dynamic.
So that's work that cannot be skipped. So if your team is designing for equity or doing something to contribute to equity, but your power systems are out of whack. You're not connected to each other. It's not okay for people to show up in their full humanity - there's no way to do robust and authentic work externally.
Chris Conley:
Nice. Great. One other thing that you talk so passionately about is prototyping. And I love you. I could just tell that you have a knack for human centered design, design thinking, the entrepreneurship that you bring in terms of knowing new solutions have the potential to create a lot of value and to create equity in the design of those things.
But you talk about prototyping and a lot of people are unfamiliar with prototyping. Can you talk a little bit about what it is and what role it plays in your work? And it could be in the health equity collective, which you may not be to that point yet of prototyping, but maybe how it is manifested in the past and why.
Why you love doing it while you're good at it?
Tiffanie Harrison:
Yeah, absolutely. So I think that the most, the best example of prototyping for me that is somewhat complete is my students - my students ran a wide format design and prep facility called dragon print shop, where, you know, they printed and created for people across the state of Texas and even nationally - and so they prototyped.
So we tried a bunch of things. We tried things that didn't work. We tried things that worked well. What we did in this process was removed the judgment. And we were really lucky, I would say, because we had resources. So through career and technical education and hospital five and the state of Texas there's funding for career and technical education programs.
So we created this environment where my students could experiment. And try different things to figure out the balance of what services and products they offered and really manage the downside of something not working. And I think that what we found from that process was that we found a lot of things that worked, that we never would have embarked upon if we didn't have the freedom and we didn't, co-create the space of liberation to tinker and try and mess up and try again.
So prototyping is simply put, trying. Trying something. You may go on a design journey and design process to figure out through interviews or through other empathy, empathy centered notions to figure out what you could create that would solve a problem. And when you prototype, you do some rapid little tries of whatever that solution is over and over again, you iterate. You may need to adjust. So for the health equity collective, there's different types of prototypes. One I know is around reparations, which is another area of my work that I'm deeply passionate about. Food, justice and reparations. Right? And we just try, what happens if we give someone direct cash?
How often do we really do something like that? And in trying, asking ourselves, what are the typical barriers that keep us from acting in the best interest of people? And one thing that I want to note is I think that often as designers, whether you're a budding designer, whether you're deeply rooted in this work - and I actually think everyone has the capacity to design. I think that the language of human centered design or design thinking is often very rooted in whiteness, but I think that the world demands that all of us step up and be a part of the process if we want true progress. Something that I tend to think a lot about when we're thinking about any kind of design - is the liberty to center the voices of the marginalized, but not just that, the acknowledgement that somethings outside of our power were designed for inequity.
Right? We talk about schools. Everybody wants to assume the best intentions of, oh, everyone wants equity. That's not true - number one. Number two, it's a system. And the education system was built to produce an equity. So that's what it produces even without the people in the system working towards it.
And so sometimes when we're looking at design, we have to look at the original intent of design. And I think about that a lot as we're navigating this process with the piloting and the prototyping teams, because right now it's looking like they'll each get 100 thousand dollars as a start to pilot their idea.
But there are so many barriers to grant funding, right? And that's inequity by design. How do you access grant funding? You need to be tied to an organization. That organization's going to have evaluative requirements that are most often rooted in quantitative data and whiteness, and not really an answering the questions that the community demands that you're serving.
And so as we're designing for change and progress and equity, we also have to decolonize and almost like de-design, or [dismantle] or look at how things have been designed to produce inequity.
Chris Conley:
Yeah, I think it's very well said. It's the ability, one of the things we teach in the catalyst program is the ability to identify convention orthodoxy.
And a lot of those things are rooted in white, some white supremacy and inequity because they were designed when all of the inequity was intentional. And by law, it was designed into our legal system. The ability to see and question how systems are established or set up now so that you can design both maybe against that system to help dismantle it, or at least acknowledge why, where the power lies and why the structures are the way they are, even though the people you're talking to are perfectly nice people, right?
That's so critical to be able to see the systemic and the systems nature of things that cause outcomes that are inequitable. So very well said. I just want to go back to just your highlights of prototyping that it's trying. Some things, I think the, a lot of my experience over the years with the Catalyst program, probably close to 10 years now, is that there's a real hesitancy to try simple things and see how they affect and how they exist in that system to make a difference, to try something and not feel like if you're trying something you're a hundred percent committed to it. It's a learning iteration. And it's one of the most joyous things to do is to put something together and say, let's try this together.
Let's see how this works and to learn everything that, that comes from that prototype. And we're that experiment, that try, I just like saying, I think that's so well said that it's just a try it's and then you evaluate it and look at whether it's working, which we do so often in all the other parts of our life.
Maybe we put up five different paint colors and go, which one do we think we like? Which one makes the room? Oh, I didn't know. It was going to look like that. When I started painting the wall, like there's all these times we do it in our regular lives, but we don't bring it to our professional life because you need to be right. Or you're afraid of wasting things or resources, but there's so much waste because people try to implement poor solutions all the time and they don't get any traction and they're not adopted by the communities that they were designed for instead of with, and yeah.
I want to thank you so much for your time and as we move towards the end of this interview - I hope we have a chance to speak more. What would you what would you share with the Catalyst teams as they, maybe one thing, maybe it's a highlight from what you've already said, but what advice would you give them as they do this kind of work? They do their project, but they do it in a way that brings equity to the world.
Tiffanie Harrison:
Absolutely. I have two kind of streams of thought. And the first thing I want to encourage these teams to do is to study white supremacy culture. And that, that requests can often be like a knee-jerk, like, what do you mean white supremacy culture? Are you're saying, because I'm white, I'm bad?
No, we are all socialized into white supremacy culture in ways that we don't even know it. So perfectionism. Feeling like we have to be so deeply committed to a perfect idea before we can move forward- that's white supremacy culture, and it's destructive to us as individuals because it causes stress and anxiety, but that can also be very destructive in a team setting.
So, Okun, O-K-U-N, I believe, has parsed out some of the characteristics of white supremacy culture and organizations. And I would encourage any design team or group to look at that and to unpack ways that you're showing up in white supremacy culture. And this is actually a racial, because as a black woman and as an educator, I can't tell you how many times I've pause to realize oh, I'm definitely enacting white supremacy culture in my practices. But then our second thing is to think about the kind of spaces that we're creating.
You may have heard this term or phrase safe space. I always pushed back on safe space because my question is who is space safe for? And, they're polite and impolite topics. Impolite topics that we never broached that are really needed to be that we really need to talk about to get to the heart of the matter.
And so our safe spaces are often the safest for privileged people. Whether that's able-bodied people. Whether that's white people, whether that's men, when we're talking about patriarchy, whether that's people that are wealthy people, that are middle age - there's all of these factors of safety.
So I don't encourage safe spaces. I encourage brave spaces, and these are spaces where we are connected to a point where we can show up in our full humanity. But we have relationship to the point where we can call each other in and work through the discomfort and embrace that discomfort. And if we want to go a step further, where I think the best creating and freedom dreaming happens - that's in a liberated space.
So that's in a space where you are connected. It goes even deeper than a brave space because a brave space still calls for marginalized people to take a step out of what is comfortable for them many times. But that liberated space means that those with power are consciously and intentionally creating and making space for those who are often without power.
And that's called a liberated space, and that's where the best change, growth, creativity, freedom - is going to happen. So I would encourage teams to think about that.
Chris Conley:
Beautiful. Yeah, a hundred percent. I can't emphasize enough what you're sharing. I think the thing that the insight I had while you were speaking is that for me as a white male who's been privileged my whole life which is, the last 10 years has been a huge awakening...
I so appreciate the ability to see the world now in a way that allows me to help make this change. But the, as we were, as we were thinking about how do we bring in more issues of power equity, anti-racism into the Catalyst program and why? Because it's not really that type of program.
It's a, a human centered design training program, which were very early conversations as we were trying to be more intentional. But given what you share today and how you were just speaking about it, the reason it's so important is it is an opening to innovation system change. It is what will lead to fundamental reform or revolution in these systems that don't work, that are highly inequitable.
And for that reason alone, it belongs in the Catalyst program. And that it's a gateway to innovative change and more inclusiveness and equity in our systems.
I want to thank you for bringing that bringing that here today with us. It's been a pleasure speaking with you listening to you, learning from you, and on behalf of CCI and all the catalysts who are going to benefit from seeing your interview, I want to thank you.
Tiffanie Harrison:
Thank you so much, Chris. I am wishing the Catalyst groups the best not just luck, but creativity, liberation, and I can't wait to see what this experience produces. So, thank you.
Chris Conley:
Thank you so much.