Interested in becoming a more conscious co-designer? Two alumni of CCI’s design thinking program — Selena Wilson and Landon Hill, staff at the East Oakland Youth Development Center (EOYDC) — share how they’re navigating power dynamics to engage youth and parents as experts on their community and their own experience.
Interested in becoming a more conscious co-designer? Two alumni of CCI’s design thinking program — Selena Wilson and Landon Hill, staff at the East Oakland Youth Development Center (EOYDC) — share how they’re navigating power dynamics to engage youth and parents as experts on their community and their own experience.
Here’s where you can learn more about the people, places, and ideas in this episode:
Catalyst, CCI’s human-centered design training program
East Oakland Youth Development Center
Webinar: Navigating Power Dynamics in Co-Design: East Oakland Youth Development Center
© 2021 Center for Care Innovations. All Rights Reserved.
This is an automated transcript. Please excuse any errors or hilarious mistakes.
I'm Jenny Wright. I'm a senior program manager here at CCI We have Selena Wilson and Linden Hill here from East Oakland, East Oakland youth development center. Uh, also known as EOI DC. And, um, the reason we brought them here today is because, uh, the EDC team has participated in CCS catalyst program in the past where we train folks to use design thinking skills. And in addition, there'll be sharing how they're navigating power dynamics and engaging youth and parents as the experts of their own experience and those that, um, that we need really need to tap in the work that we do in our organizations.
so with that, I'm going to go ahead and ask Selena and Linden to both introduce yourselves. Um, tell us a bit about East Oakland youth development center and, um, and a little bit about how youth and parent engagement has become such a high priority
For you.
All right. So, um, I'm Selena Wilson and I am the vice president of organizational effectiveness at AODC. Um, but the role at UIC that I'm most proud of is as an alumni of the organization and actually started at four years old in the West African dance class. Um, and just kind of for a little bit of context of how EOC works and why I've been able to be a part of UNC for so long. Uh, what we do is we provide a continuum of services for young people all the way from page five or the four year olds with sneaking like me to age 24, um, so that we can really help follow along in their educational journey into their career paths. And we do that through a series of free afterschool and summer programs, um, that are primarily focused on education, careers,
Arts, and wellness. And over the years, we put an increasing emphasis on being healing center and trauma informed, which we'll talk a little bit more about today. Um, but in terms of how we deliver those services, we also have something we call a cascading mentorship framework where we train high school and college age students to work with their younger counterparts. So I actually started at, uh, yo YDC as a youth leader when I was 13 years old. So that was kinda my first job and my first engagement with youth work as a youth. And, you know, that will become more relevant as we speak today, but it's really been a huge part of my life for the past three decades and going,
Yeah. So again, I'm Landon Gill, I'm the senior manager of programs. Why do you see a similar system? Lena? I am also an alumni, although I started a little bit later when I started, but I started as a youth leader, um, as part of that cascading model that she described. Um, and so that allowed for me to get a number of different leadership roles within the organization. Um, and then I've been back now for about four and a half years, um, in professional capacity. And so, um, very similar as to Selena it, it really was kind of the launching point. Um, I didn't realize at the time and the launching point from our career and wanting to work with students and, um, and going to education and that type of thing. And so, um, you know, um, I think we were both very happy to be able to give back in a way that we do, um, to the center of the guys so much to us.
Awesome. Awesome. Great to hear that. And, um, and just to set context, cause I know we'll talk about this in detail. There's anything you want to share about, um, you know, how you, how you've realized that engaging youth and parents, um, as part of your community is really has a risen to the top. Um, if you have to say it size that amount of that before we get in. Yeah. So I think you, you mentioned, uh, an adage that we'll often say a lot, um, that I think our president and CEO Regina Jackson says a lot as well, which is that our young people are the experts in their own experience as are our parents. And I think that Y to C has always been a really good job of putting youth in meaningful leadership roles that said, I think there are elements of more kind of strategic program design where maybe we hadn't really thought about kind of, um, getting their input in the design process.
We're always really, um, you know, into getting feedback on the backend or having them design certain activities or elements. But I think what catalyst really did, and I know we'll talk about this in more detail was help us really give them tools to be a part of the design process from the problem identification identification stage on out. Whereas before, you know, we didn't necessarily have the tools to engage them in the way that, that we're now able to engage them. I guess what I would say is that the heart and intent was always there. So engage in people who you didn't have the tools. Right, right. It makes a lot of sense.
Yeah. I mean, I would just add to that. I think, you know, a lot of times, um, especially in like the education world, the, uh, making kind of students or wherever your, your service population is kind of the center of their own experiences always stated, but the, um, practice of that is always a lot more difficult. Right. And so, um, I remember when I was a youth leader, I had this one young boy who like, kind of adopted me as right. And like that to me at the time, I didn't realize, and I'm looking back on it, it, even in that moment he was reaching out and seeking something that may be like, I didn't necessarily know was maybe a boy or something like that for him. Um, but we, don't always, we're not always able to kind of step outside of that moment and then like really dig into what is it that you are needing or asking for requesting like when we're seeing or hearing these, this type of feedback right. Into Selena's point, I think both time resources. Um, and then just kind of stepping outside of the moment, because we're always so kind of in the here and now that it takes a moment to step back and then actually invite people to, um, be able to share a little bit more, understand what it is that they actually need and not just kind of handle the immediate situation. And so, um, I think being able to have this time now has really been helpful for us.
Great. Great. Awesome. So with that, that's a great segue to talk a bit about the, um, the profit, the project topic you came into the panelist experience with and kind of how that evolved over time. And I think you kind of alluded to it, Selena sharing that you gained so many more tools to better do this. So if you can speak a bit about which tools you use, um, and, and how it developed your work, that would be great. Yeah. So I think this really illustrates what I'm talking about. Well, in that, um, you know, previously what we would do is kind of decide like, okay, this is what we think the problem, the solution is. We'll take this to our young people and get feedback on it. Um, and originally what we pitched was that we feel, we need to do a better job of training, our young people who are youth leaders, who are trained to work with our even younger students in our trauma informed care approaches.
Um, and so as the staff kind of looking in, we thought that the problem was training. Therefore, the solution is better training. And, you know, when we would initially go to youth leaders with this kind of positive, they would say, okay, here's how you can improve the training because that's how we're framing it. We were saying, we want to do better training. How can we do better training? But when we took the tools that catalyst gave us and said, instead, Hey, we want to do training. And it said, said, said, walk us through what your experience is like day to day, right? And so doing the journey maps, and then seeing like these kinds of pain points throughout day, from their perspective that we missed and then asking them about their thoughts on these different kinds of points in their experience from onboarding to training to their day to day so forth.
And so on what we realized is that actually training was not the problem at all. So they were like, we love training. Train is great. It's just that in the moment, it's really hard to execute these things that we learned because of X, Y, Z. And then we just have this huge aha, um, and said, Oh man, so, okay, scrap what we originally thought, um, what is it that you think you really need? And what it really came down to for them is we need more, very hands-on support, um, because there's just a lot going on. And we, you know, we're coming from school, we're already feeling a little stressed ourselves, and we want to be able to bring our best selves for the kids. And we feel like needs a little bit more support to do that. And for them, they also valued kind of having that peer level support.
Um, and so, and I want to go on too, too much into the details, but you know, what we, we then found, um, through some of the coaching that we got through catalyst was this idea of kind of borrowing concepts from other fields and other sectors. And since we happen to be working with a lot of medical professionals, we thought about the residency model for doctors and how young, you know, not young necessarily, but new surgeons will actually be residents and watch other surgeons do surgery before they do it. And then it of flips. So we decided to borrow from that and create a new youth advisor role based on the experiences that our young people were sharing with us. But again, how are we not gone through this journey mapping experience and really talking more about stuff that can be hard for young people to pinpoint, because if you ask them, what's the root problem, what's the solution they don't necessarily know, but they know their experience. And then once you get them in those conversations and you start training them in the tools, they were able to help us prototype the solutions and test them and give us feedback.
Yeah. Know, I, I w I would completely agree. Um, you know, one of the things too, is that because a lot of the, even when we were providing training a lot of the tools and skills that we were trying to get very new for them. And so not necessarily having somebody, either, it was like an adult who was kind of, um, who was modeling these things. And so sometimes even just the age gap is like, well, yeah, you can do that. But like, I might not necessarily be able to do it. Right. And so to then have somebody closer in age who is a little bit more experienced, but still considered a peer, um, was a little bit more engaging and inviting for them to say, Oh, okay, like maybe now I can do it too. And be able to have an example that they were maybe a little bit more, um, whether it be willing or, or just, it was easier to kind of comprehend the ways in which the do some of the things that we were already providing in training, and they understood it intellectually, but maybe not always how to practice.
And so being able to go through the process of kind of understanding what it is that they were experiencing and saying, all right, here is now maybe a better solution that both solved the issues that we saw, but then also address the real issue that they were experiencing understanding.
Sure, sure. And I just loved that both of you really illustrated well, the importance of taking the time to step back and understand the problem and make sure you're designing solutions to address the right problem. Um, in addition to, you know, Sunday I heard from both of you is really being incredibly intentional about understanding, not just their perspective on what the problem is the issue is, but just their experience overall. And that really just gives you so much richness and figuring out, like, what is your role here in, in better and better serving your community members? And so, um, I'm going to pivot just a little bit, because I know, um, you know, we kind of talked about this conversation as really an opportunity to hear, especially around how you all are shifting power dynamics. I think we're, we're going in that direction. Um, and so I'm curious if you can speak to, you know, what has been most important for you to do, um, both as individually as individuals and as an organization, um, to really see a shift of power from just those who are working in a professional setting to the community residents, um, to the parents and how you really engage folks in their work.
Yeah. You know, I, for me, I think that it was, um, I have had to kind of really contend with the different ways that power and privilege operate. And, you know, as by definition, blind spots are areas that you just can't see. And I think something that I could not see for quite a while is that while I'm an alumni of the organization, while I grew up in that neighborhood, well, I went to the local high school and all these things, while I am a black woman, I can experience relate to a lot of experiences. I have this point in my life have a very different type of positional power. I'm a very different type of, you know, all those things. So in, and there's also generational differences that I honestly had taken for granted because it's like, well, I grew up here, your gear, same difference.
And it's like, no, here 20 years later is meaningfully different. And there's a lot of meaningful similarities as well. But what I have to recognize is that, Oh, I have to stand back because my presence in the room in some ways may pressure our young people to not really say everything that's on their mind. So what we decided to do was ask the young people, like of all of our staff, who do you feel the most comfortable with in terms of like, you know, you would be comfortable telling them anything. Wouldn't be worried about them judging how good of a job you're doing or whatever. And they identify someone not surprisingly who was nowhere in their kind of super visceral Oriel chain, right? So that person then trained a couple young people to lead the process with their peers. So in terms of like doing the journey, mapping exercises, doing the prototyping, um, a lot of that was led by their peers.
So we train them to do it. Um, and so that they could feel absolutely free because even if we tell them, Hey, we want you to share everything we want you to feel really comfortable. I think there's always going to be a little inhibition, even if it's subconscious. And so by removing ourselves from the facilitation process, I think we were able to balance out some of those power dynamics. The other important thing is making sure that we report back what we heard to them and said, Hey, this is what we heard. This is what we took away from. It does this sound right? And there will be times where they would correct us and like, no, that's not what we meant. Or yes, that sounds about right. So making sure that like in a documented way, like we're taking this seriously, this is what we're hearing, and we've done similar things with the parents. And I think, um, you know, we'll talk a little bit more about that in a bit, but do you have anything to add to that?
I think, you know, we've mentioned a few times how, where we have done, we work and serve primarily young people. Oftentimes we do work with our, with our parents. And we're more intentional about that. I think even in those two concepts, things are a little bit different. Um, but I think one of the things in terms of kind of looking at the power dynamics there is that, especially when you work with young people, a lot of times we're put in these positions to help them to either to learn certain things. And so automatically there is this sense that like, I know more than you do, right. And to some extent that's true in terms of just like experience, right. Unless it's, I can be quiet, et cetera, et cetera, but it then becomes hard to step out to recognize that that's not a blanket state, right?
Like there are certain things that maybe I have experienced or certain things that I have become aware of that I'm in this role to make sure happens. But in, you are still going to know much more about your own individual experience and experiences of your peers than I will. Right. And so I can, there are certain things that I am required to facilitate, but when I'm asking you what is going to be best for you, I can't then put my own presumptions upon you. Right. Even though I may have this knowledge where there's an understanding about whatever it is that we're, that we're talking about. Right. Um, and so I think really, again, kind of stepping outside and recognize and understanding my job, one of my jobs is to make sure that I set you up for success and provide you with skills and information.
You may not know that does not mean that you now are, do not have, uh, an opportunity or not have the ability to say, Hey, but this is still what is best for me. Right. Um, and so I think just kind of taking that, um, yeah, just, just taking that mindset of like, understanding that, yes, this is a young person, but a person who is still fully aware of what it is that they need. And like really our challenge has been making sure that we are able to kind of get that out of them as opposed to just kind of observing and making decisions for them. Um, although I think sometimes that's kind of how we frame our work oftentimes. Um, and so I think just kind of breaking out of them is one of the toughest things to do. Cause you kind of do it subconsciously, right. Again, even though you might know intellectually you're, you don't want to do, they're not supposed to it or whatever that habit and kind of routine is still falls into that. So you're really intentional about not so much.
Absolutely. Absolutely. Yeah. And I love it really examples of you intentionally letting go of the things that you typically would do and how you typically would do things. Um, I just, I like the way you both shared it. And I'm curious now to share, you know, for, especially for folks who are thinking about how they might shift power dynamics and the work that they do, you know, if you could speak to what has been most rewarding for you and really letting go of that power, um, as well as what has been most challenging or what is most challenging. And then we'll segue into talking a bit more about some of your work with the parents. Yeah. So I think that, that's a great question because obviously there are trade-offs right. So I think that one of the most rewarding things is that, um, their solutions are better
Than I think their insights are much better than mine. Um, so in that way it is humbling. Um, and I think also the challenges, uh, translating a little bit, because to be clear, like they weren't, our young people didn't say we need like a residency model. They were, we had to kinda like figure out, um, how to operationalize some of what they were saying in a way that honor with the intent, I think, behind what it is that they were saying, um, and was also something that we could actually feasibly do. Right. So in that I'm sure like there are some things lost than fidelity. So I think part of the challenge is sometimes you do feel disappointed when despite your best efforts, you know, it's an iterative process and there are definitely been cycles of the iteration where it did not, you know, realize the full potential of what we saw with it.
And so kind of sticking through being consistent, understanding that sometimes the iterations will take like two cysts back and you, you know, you kind of have to keep plugging along. And that also as more, uh, folks come on board, you know, in our case, more young people, that's going to influence the way that things move forward. So it's, you're never done. You're never done. And that is I think the ultimate challenge and recognizing again, with a power dynamic that you have to constantly be listening, you have to constantly be making sure that there is space for people to share these things.
Um, yeah. Yeah. I think, I think on a similar note, right? When, when you are constantly listening, one of the challenges is understanding what is sometimes not working for individual versus the group. And so, you know, and I find myself like this a lot. Um, we've done a lot of work in our staff around like kind of, um, our, our leadership models and stuff like that, or kind of like our personalities. So I tend to be like a vision, right. So somebody will come to me with an issue and I'm like, Oh, snap, like, we can do this over here, this over here, but really that may not be everybody's problem. And so then when you're trying to create something that is really best for a team really is what we're doing, understanding that you're constantly listening for, what are things that are constant amongst the team, but then also what are maybe something to visual issues that could be solved, but maybe you can, you're not gonna be able to solve everybody's immediate issue.
Right. Um, and so I think being able to determined and really clear on what are the things that need to be acted upon versus those things that unfortunately it's like, it's a, it's an issue and maybe we can find ways to work around it, but it's not going to be something that you have to act on that you are going to be able to act on it, to solve the team issue, or it may not be a team issue. Right. Um, and so I think that that is one of the challenges. Um, in addition to also just understanding when things aren't working, the way, which you envision them, is it that it's just gonna take more time? Is it that, um, it's actually, the idea is, is working, but if the station is not right, like again, really understanding and giving yourself time to really understand those things, because you don't want to keep going with something that's just not working, but you don't know if it's just not working or if it just hasn't worked yet.
Right. And so it's constantly going through that. Am I kind of being in your head about it, um, is probably one of the most difficult, uh, difficult things that, that comes out of it. But seeing, I think for me, one of the things that's most rewarding is just knowing that we are being intentional about hearing from knuckles and knowing that the pivots that we make are at least in response to, and ultimately do some good most of the time, um, say at least address the problem, then we can continue to make tweaks, but no one that we'd have these kind of move further away from what the original issue was, is the most rewarding thing.
That's great. That's great. And when I'm hearing from both of you is the importance of listening is coming out loud and clear. And also that nuance of, it's not just listening at one part, one point of a project or a process, and then closing your ears and moving forward, it's like, it's iterative, it's continuous. And you have to keep listening to your end users, your clients, your community members, to really ensure that what you're doing is right on track. Um, great, great examples. Um, and so now I want to just pivot slightly and, um, yeah, we, we talked, we heard a bit about your catalyst project and experience with youth. I'd love, if you can share a bit about how you all continue to use design thinking in your work, um, in particularly with, um, engaging youth and parents. Yeah. So, you know, I think that we have the very, very fortunate opportunity to work with CCI, um, and some other really brilliant design thinkers, including Ida Davis from decolonized design and Rosa mispronounced, wonderful Rose's last name.
Um, and we really came together to think about how can we engage parents. And one of the key things that, that came to the forefront was this idea of relationship. And I think that we took for granted again, you know, we're from the community. I went to school with quite a few of our parents, but our relationship in the space of the building does count sometimes take on that role of like, you know, it feels like we're the authority on youth development. Yeah. Development center people, and you're the parent and, you know, you get services from us and it's kind of transactional. It can feel that way. And so we wanted to really in the space of, you know, we've been doing surveys and that kind of stuff, and it's like, yeah, you know, you can get some, some insights there, but it's not partnership.
And, you know, in that sense, and certainly while we have fosters in individual relationships with parents, we really thought, you know, how can we really, again, go to our parents as experts in their children as experts in the community to really tell us what it is that they would like to see from us to really inform us on what does a healing centered youth development center look like to you? Because of staff, we have our point of view and have been doing this internal work on trauma informed care and healing center design. Um, but recognize like, wait a minute, um, our parents, me to come to the table. And if it's just a meeting that we're inviting you to write again, it feels very true. Yeah. So this idea of like, let's have a dinner for parents with CCI, you know, helped us design. And we really designed the experience around it, of how can we build relationships with parents?
How can we treat them with the same regard that we would like an expert that a funder sends us or someone else, right. Because they're, they have how you will insights. And so we started with that first and really started with visioning, um, and then kind of moved to the more tactical pieces of feedback and that sort of thing. And so for me, it was a very, very transformative transformational way of thinking about how do we not just get parent feedback, but really again, partner them in designing the solution and understanding their perspectives. Um, it was, it was so invaluable. Like I'm kind of at a loss for words on like how much my mind has kind of shifted in rethinking how we do, not just again, parent engagement, but parent partnership and treating them as experts.
Yeah. And I, and I think also part of it is recognizing that when we are in arts and to serve our young people, right. And Selena mission, we serve primarily ages five to 24. A lot of our young students aren't voluntarily companies, right? Like that's just the reality, but who's bringing them is their parents. Right? And so in order for us to do our best jobs, there is some need that parents feel like we can eat. Um, but it's a, we can do our absolute best of, uh, finding out from young people what it is that they want or that they need in some that they're experienced at the center. But also what we, one of the things that I don't think that we were doing the best job at is really coming to understand what is it that the parents were seeking in dropping their sins off you're right.
Because we offer a number of different services, but for all we know there is one or two things in particular that they were really looking for and the rest maybe they cared about and maybe they did. Right. And so in our attempt to not just partner, because it's another stakeholder, but understand that we actually need them in order to do the best job that we can to serve the young people that we say is our target demographic. Right. Um, and so, uh, being able to, then again, I keep going back to this that I think is really important. This is the way that kind of makes sense for me is to really step back. It's like I said back and then say, all right, we understand that you are not just somebody who drops off and picks up like the person that we serve, but like, we need your insight in order to know how to best serve. Um, our, our, our, um, our young people, um, was, was one of the things that has been really good about this process and then been able to get better, much more rich insight than we have been able to get from our traditional models.
You know, we know a lot of our parents, but not to the same level that even just in these last couple of months, we've been able to get out a lot more information on top of those same, um, those same tools we were already using. Um, and so just kind of see how things have changed in a small amount of time, um, has been really, really hard.
And one thing I would like to say about power dynamics, um, you know, I did spend some time working with parents in a very affluent community here in the Bay area. And I think the ways in which affluent parents, um, have access to that are feel they have not just feel they have actual access to decision-making processes is very different than what a lot of our parents experience. Um, some of the things that we heard of a lot from our parents and these sessions are the kind of things that they go through with their children's school, not feeling hurt, sometimes feeling outright, disrespected, even assaulted, that kind of thing. And so really helping our parents, um, not helping them, but honoring that they should absolutely be involved in the decision-making at all levels. And that, um, there's, there should be no sense of apology making on their part because they're asking for, or demanding something that should be happening.
Right. Um, and I think when I look at again, the way the affluent parents are able to make demands and have those demands respected and dignified in a way that a lot of our parents are not respected and dignified. I think the experience of just being told, we need to hear from you is important. And I'm hoping will really, um, path the course for more of that. And, you know, we have, uh, I I'm moving away from using the word empowered because it centers me as the person who's like giving you power when you have the power, right. And it's like, I have the responsibility to create the space. And so one of the things that, um, I'm feeling more, you know, commitment to is how can we really work with partners to create more of these spaces where we as any field really start to value the input of our parents who may or may not have the same formal education or whatever, but have untold amount of expertise, um, in the nuance of their experience.
And again, even for us folks who went to the same schools live in St. Community, if you are not living in that direct community right now, there are things going on right now that are beyond your experience, your lived experience that you just can not really fully know just from reading about it. Right? So again, like giving space, being humble, recognizing power that's there. I think it's just really, really important. And I know that a lot of folks probably on the line are working with communities who are facing similar things, where they are told that, you know, their voice maybe doesn't matter in ways that are direct or indirect where they're made to feel like they are the passive recipients of someone else's like good deeds or expertise or whatever. And, you know, I'm all about interdependence. Like we certainly have some expertise and things to offer, but we are not like the experts.
Right. We have a set of expertise, they have a set of expertise. And that is the case for, for co-design in general, right? Like all of your clients have expertise that can be tapped. And I think the tools allow for there to be kind of that, um, articulation of it. And you have the responsibility pretty space where that power can really come forth. And I think it has to what I've learned through this is it has to start with relationship. It can't just start with information. Right. I think that used to be my go-to of like, I'm going to give you this information and then you can respond to it. And it's like, yeah. But if I don't have a relationship with you, it's going to hinder the extent to which I can really authentically exchange with you. So it's taking that time to build relationship is critical to the quality of input that you're going to get.
Yeah. I think, um, you know, this was, I recognize this when we were having a call, uh, you know, all of us were on a call one time. And I think one of the things that has also been really important is for us as EODC to also put ourselves in a learning position, right. And not be solely the one who is not just no longer like kind of empowering quote unquote, but also be the ones learning in this. Right. And so, um, part of the reason that we even partnered with CCI, because we realized, Hey, we are somewhat falling short in terms of making sure that we are partnering and like going about the business of actually engaging our parents the way in our students, the way in which we would like to, um, as we have gone through this process, one of the things that I think has been really good, um, is that as we are looking to empower our or not to lift up the voices of our parents, right.
And to say, Hey, we want to hear your input. And we want to make sure that you feel validated and here are some things that we can provide to you in order for you to kind of showcase your own leadership, strengths, skills, et cetera. We have also kind of been needed to take, okay, now write it and send back and say, Hey, CCI, please help us in areas where we are, are not actually maximizing. Right. And so, as we're learning right, then we're able to also step back and allow for parents to learn and to grow and to step up. And so, uh, we're not solely kind of the, um, the kind of all-knowing youth development center who was saying, Hey, parents, come while we're going to give you this. But we're also like we're learning alongside while you're learning. And we're all kind of doing this collaboratively.
Um, and so that, I think has been one good thing about, um, this process in, in about us really kind of reworking, um, and understanding how to make sure that our parents are feeling, um, more comfortable with not just saying, Oh yeah, my child goes to you and YC, but like, I am working with you. Why do you see that? Um, and I think that's one of the things that also recognizing that people have not, don't always feel that sense of, uh, of, um, I guess that comfort level of being able to, to be in a position where they can make decisions and they can kind of speak their,
We were asking him, Hey, what are your, what is it that you need and provide or help with or whatever it kept coming back to like, [inaudible], what are the things that we're not really acknowledging that you wish it takes a minute, so, Oh, that's what this is about. Right. And so trying to move to that space to where parents feel like, no, we're really okay with you saying, this is what we aren't doing this for us yet. It's not about to criticize or anything, but that's great. That's great. And I think you're speaking really well to like one of the key tenants of design thinking is being collaborative and many of us, you know, intend to be collaborative. And we think we know what it looks like, but, you know, you're illustrating that it, it really takes putting on your own learner hat from all perspectives, because similarly CCS learning as we're working with you all.
Um, and it's just, you know, one thing I just really appreciate about the catalyst program and from my experience in it last year was actually the tools and methods and ways in which you can intentionally be collaborative. So it's not just that you're doing that. You want to be collaborative, but you're actually doing it. And this is what it looks like to do it.